Curse

Furfoot · Jul 24, 2006, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

They won't implement popular builds as direct premades.

Premades are ALWAYS gimped in some fashion, to promote having to buy/unlock further skills to tweak them with.

They tried to implement popular builds before but failed due to lack of input from the real players.

Kabale · Jul 24, 2006, 10:10 AM // 10:10

As mentioned, there are a few builds in there that are not suited for RA/TA, for example the necro. Well of Profane? No self heal? If you wanna suicide, at least bring Death Nova!

As for the elementalist, well I'd rather have Heal Other in there than Party.

IDK, it just feels like half of these are GvG builds and are not true to the 4vs4 format that people will be using them for.

Longasc · Jul 24, 2006, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabale

IDK, it just feels like half of these are GvG builds and are not true to the 4vs4 format that people will be using them for.

I second that.

Premades are for casual players and starters, for Random and Team Arenas. They are good builds - but for another environment. Please post some more RA/TA builds! No GvG or HA/Tombs builds.

You need not post the uber GvG build, a solid cookie cutter might not be fancy but it would be a much more useful template.

Akuma · Jul 24, 2006, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Nice premades, some cool ideas there

, hopefully they'll push the standard of RA up, and help new players learn fairly common pvp builds.

Too bad there's no spell slasher :P

fallot · Jul 24, 2006, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Premades are for casual players and starters, for Random and Team Arenas.

IMHO its wrong to think that RA is "starter PvP". I want my friends to play GvG, scrub GvG though it may be. Effective premades means that this can be done quickly and easily. I don't know where the preconception that premades are for 4v4 comes from, but I disagree with it.

Nevertheless, these builds would be very effective in RA. I don't see where the complaints are coming from.

Lady Frost Bite · Jul 24, 2006, 12:27 PM // 12:27

The frenzy warrior is a very good build to use, as most high level GvG teams do use one or more of them in a build.

The crip shot ranger is a very good flag runner, again a few top GvG teams use them and a crip shot ranger owns on the frozen isle guild hall but the ranger is something you need to know how to use to know how to play, you can't just crip everyone in sight, you have to know who and when to crip, as well as who and when to interupt.

for the e-surge mes, i would have liked to see rez chant over ressurect, just for the added health you get from rez chant.

As far as i can tell(from playing in top 100 guilds before)most of the builds posted by EW are for medium to good players which since it was EW who got to post them i didn't expect to see any builds that just anyone can play. I think that there are plenty of options out there for new players and these new builds will give the more advanced players something to think about.

you have to figure that if these builds are for more advanced teams(or players)then you know what you might run into in a high level gvg, so you have time to look them over, and maybe come up with a very good counter attack incase you ever find yourself up against it in GvG.

all in all, nice work EW. i look forward to seeing the premades come to life even tho myself and most of the people i know already have a PvP toon with the skills you've listed.

XvArchonvX · Jul 24, 2006, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

They won't implement popular builds as direct premades.

Premades are ALWAYS gimped in some fashion, to promote having to buy/unlock further skills to tweak them with.

I don't think this is always the case, but there are definately some builds out there that are less than optimal for their uses unless you tweak them a bit.

I run the Fang of Meladaru from time to time, but I don't see why they present the build with only one defensive stance. The deep wound from Twisting Fangs is nice, but considering how much damage the build does without it along with the fact that the extra bleeding is useless, I find Lightning Reflexes to come more in handy for when you're toe to toe with an enemy for the defense and increased attack rate.

overclocked · Jul 24, 2006, 02:33 PM // 14:33

how come the outputs broken into code in ie and firefox?

can some one post these in a readable format pleaz...

also on the topic of frenzy its by far the best attack speed buff in 99.9% of all warriors for PvP situations, because its always available and its negative effects can be removed by using a cancle stance like rush or sprint. Its so much better than any other attack speed buff that, it is the only good attack speed buff, and u need to have one in pvp, so you need frenzy.

p.s. where is it written that pre-mades are for random arena? They are PvP only, not random arena only. I know what most of these new premades are and im sure that every one of them is better for ra, ta, gvg and ha then the original premades were, hands down better.

Sarevok Thordin · Jul 24, 2006, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Good lord no............

I didn't want the most overused builds in the game becoming PREmades........

Originality is for newbs ;_;

Edit: BTW, to those thinking Frenzy is uber in PvP, Spear of Light and Smite can utterly WRECK you when using it. It's around 200dmg if hit right.

JR · Jul 24, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

Good lord no............

I didn't want the most overused builds in the game becoming PREmades........

Originality is for newbs ;_;

Edit: BTW, to those thinking Frenzy is uber in PvP, Spear of Light and Smite can utterly WRECK you when using it. It's around 200dmg if hit right.

A wise man once said; "If you want to be sure you are running something original, run something sub-par". EW gave us good premades, end of discussion.

And who the hell seriously uses Spear of Light OR Smite? T_T

overclocked · Jul 24, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

Edit: BTW, to those thinking Frenzy is uber in PvP, Spear of Light and Smite can utterly WRECK you when using it. It's around 200dmg if hit right.

This is actually a good guideline for people to use when deciding to play pvp or pve, if u ever see spear of light in pvp, and u lose to the people using it you need to stop playing pvp forever.

your statement if serious, makes me laugh. Frenzy is a must have skill, there is no other good choice for a warrior in pvp.

ElRey · Jul 24, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

AoE = Smite
Spear of Light = Smite Ball

You lot need to PvP/GvG more

Frenzy is used for SPIKING. Yes, Warriors CAN SPIKE. Newsflash! You use Frenzy, then you unload all your offensive skills.

True, if you die using frenzy, you arent a very good warrior, but you charge, then spike using frenzy, and if you get spiked, theres nothing you can do about it.

Also, if you think warriors arent targeted in GvG, you are on crack.

Overextended = OWNAGE!

Oh and T Bot, if we dont use frenzy to spike, what are we gonna use, Tiger Stance? :P

Sarevok Thordin · Jul 24, 2006, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Even the overused builds were original at some point, did that make them sub-par? :P

Spear of Light and Smite could become quite popular once the newb zerg rush on the Shock War kicks in.

overclocked · Jul 24, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

FYI - shock axe wars, with fenzy have been popular for about a year.

yesitsrob · Jul 24, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

Even the overused builds were original at some point, did that make them sub-par? :P

Spear of Light and Smite could become quite popular once the newb zerg rush on the Shock War kicks in.

by Smite do you mean the actual skill smite? or smite in general, like zealots, balths whatever... if you mean the skill...

What sort of top.... er... top 500 guild _doesn't_ run Frenzy on their warriors? It's been the case for a good every single season now, it's run in HA, GVG, TA (some will try and claim it's a bad idea in TA, but they are full of crap)... and the scrubs will still continue to run Healing Breeze, Flurry garbage. Better premades probably won't fix that... they'll probably just see frenzy and be like "OMFG HOW2TANK!!!!?"

Frenzy is a risk, in that you are vulnerable to an extent when you are using it, but considering that it gets you adrenaline faster, increases damage in the form of spike and pressure then it's one hell of a good risk to take. And really it's not that huge of a risk, sure you'll get caught and spiked in frenzy sometimes, but you have sprint/rush/hex breaker to cancel it. Just don't suck too hard

_

So on the premades, I think it's good to finally see some good builds, sort of the common ones you'd hope and expect to see, Shock Warrior, Crip Shotter, Boon Monk, really cool

- I hope that it might improve certain standards of players, doubt it willl though

Sarevok Thordin · Jul 24, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Seems I've unearthed the close mindedness of some people -_-

yesitsrob · Jul 24, 2006, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

Seems I've unearthed the close mindedness of some people -_-

Elaborate a little, all I've really got from you right now is you can come up with garbage like this "Spear of Light and Smite could become quite popular once the newb zerg rush on the Shock War kicks in."

Sarevok Thordin · Jul 24, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Simple, 70% of people in guild wars will NOT move from a certain build to try and make something original.

Examples

IWAY in HA
Shock Wars
Boon Prots
MM
Blood Spike
Ritual Lords (To a lesser extent)
SS

The list goes on but you should be able to see what I am getting at.

People are just not trying to experiment much now with these builds. If it's not seen in Observer mode, it's crap.

Flame at will. (Btw the SoL and Smite thing was to get some thoughts flowing, and guess what, the closed mind said GTFO)

Mercury Angel · Jul 24, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Close-mindedness?

I like the smiting line, and I'd love to run it. And I DO run it occasionally.

However, like most attribute lines, most of the skills in it are low tier, and largely uncomparable to the few good skills in it.

Balthazar's Aura, Smite Hex, Zealot's Fire, and Judge's Insight is pretty much the summation of what you see out of smiting competitively. The first is one of the few viable pulsing-DoT spells, the second has a large area and makes for cheap, armor-ignoring damage, the third, adds additional AoE damage while you also support allies, and the fourth tosses on another ~30% of base damage output from your warrior's attack.
Scourge Healing also sees play in hex heavy builds, both to discourage Heal Party spamming, and to further decrease the effectiveness of healing.

PvE-wise, Balthazar's Spirit and Shield of Jugment are added to that list. Strength of Honour possibly there, where maintained enchantments are much easier to use.

The bulk of the rest of the smiting line is overcosted, slow to recharge, and/or just plain bad. (Retribution + Holy Wrath, yay x_x)

It's rather sad that, even in PvE, where you run into monsters for sure in certain areas with vulnerability to Holy damage, you're often better off just using Judge's Insight on your Warrior, and then ignoring the monsters, for optimal damage output.

It is a FACT: Not all skills are created equally.

Some may have their niche uses while not being strictly better than others, but for the most part, as is in common in pretty much every game from Magic the Gathering to all MMORPG's, certain builds and certain skills float to the top. They're either simply strictly better than the rest, more viable in the current metagame, or provide a disproportionate amount of effectiveness vs the amount of skill required to run them.
As I understand it, the range of power levels between skills is often referred to as the "power band". But that's rather useless trivia <_<

In any case, as to guilds not running 'original builds', as I understand it, they do (Especially the most competitive ones). Off-season, unrated and/or in smurf guilds primarily, usually, but they're still trying new things. What you see in Observer Mode is what has petered out on top. The most effective builds for the current metagame that they feel most comfortable running.

yesitsrob · Jul 24, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Or maybe that's not the case... When I played warrior, I'd have something pretty standard to start with, eventually you'll swap skills out, try things out... and you just come to the same obvious conclusions with skills as everyone else, like I ended up in a period where I wouldn't take protectors strike off my bad, and if I'm running axe, Eviscerate is a must, I don't really feel the need to experiment with say, Whirling Axe, or Triple Chop, just from the skill description you can see they aren't good... there are just skills that stand out above others. Even if you look at IAS options for a warrior - you get Flurry, Frenzy, Tigers Stance, Beskerkers Stance, Tigers Fury (R) - and Frenzy, to me anyway, is just so superior than any of the others

On elementalist, Ether Prodigy would be a good example... I suppose this is largely because most ele elites are terrible, people might run it because they see it on observer, but to me, I don't think Ether Prodigy + Heal Party combo is simply copying, it's just a blatently obvious good build. And with ritualist you have the likes of Shelter and Rt Lord, and you look at the other Rt elites and they are largely really bad.

Obviously there will be skills out there that have undiscovered potential, but some skills (I'd say Smite is a pretty good example) are clearly limited in their use, and it doesn't even take experimenting to realise this.

If you look at skills like Tranquility you can see that, in certain builds, it could be a really poweful skill... especially in an Enchantment heavy HA environment... and OUT realised this and came up with the NR-Tranq build.

I consider HA to be largely pick up play anyway - and you're not going to get far experimenting with a pick up team in that. Builds like IWAY and Bloodspike are so convenient for pick up play, and are quite efficient at getting fame even with bad players which you will get in HA pick ups